South Florida Mitsubishi Enthusiasts

Hey there my names Dan. i just moved down to ftlauderdale about 6months ago i use to live in port saint lucie. i drive a 1990 awd eagle talon. it has a act2600 in it front mount. 14G not 14b i researched it alot. i have no idea where the turbo came from i got it cheap. stock exhuast-_- im in the process of putting a ported head on and ported exhuast manifold.im gonna be tuning it speed density. hope to see you all around sometime.

Welcome! I actually just moved up to PSL 2 months ago.

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DsMeD
D(daily) S(service) M(and maintenance)

Welcome to it.

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2017 Volkswagen Golf R
2012 Volkswagen Golf R - SOLD
2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI - SOLD
1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX - PARKED
1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX - WRECKED

Thank you.

i still vist port saint lucie. but between work and working on the car its hard. and gas...lets not even start on gas

Welcome!

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-Mike
-2021 Chevy Blazer 2LT Midnight Sport

Welcome.



Hate to be an ass, but it's what I'm known for....

1) Grammar, capitalization, and punctuation are considered good and polite here.

2) Ported head + 14g + stock everything else = loss of power. Leave your stock head alone. You're wasting your money. We make well into the high 500's on 100% bone-stock heads. Ported exh. manifold (assuming you mean a 2g mani. ported around the throat area in the collector) isn't a bad idea though -- that does help. Your stock exhaust needs to go though.

3) So far as speed density, that covers a broad range of EMS setups, and generally speaking SD tuning is a major pain in the rear compared to MAS or MAF based tuning (it's also far shitter/suckier). Problem is that MAF/MAS tuning isn't always possible; however with an almost 100% stock car like yours, that simply isn't the case.

IMO, you might want to reevaluate your choices. Seems like you're just pissing money into the wind to be "1337" to the t00n3rz and sound fast.

_________________
-Will
2020 Giant Defy Adv 1
2023 Giant Revolt Adv 0
2022 Ibis Ripmo
2018 Trek Roscoe "Frankenbike"
2020 Trek Marlin 8

RIP:
Raul Ortiz - 02/29/2008
Westley Hess - 12/30/2008
Dad - 4/24/2010
Curt Brown - 5/23/2020

I aplaude your use of technical terms, sir. Though I politely disagree and will continue to enjoy my MAP/IAT.

MODED!lol. welcome aboard sir. Hope to see you at the meets.How bout some pics of your ride? is a 14g bigger then a 14b?

1) You're an asshole.
2) MAP/IAT setups require full re-tunes to make use of most adjustments to the vehicle, MAF (and MAS) setups will usually need only minor tweaks, if anything to compensate for vehicle changes. It's also a lot less accurate since it's simply guessing at the volume of air in the engine based on predefined datatables (maps). MAF directly measures it.

For a slightly more in-depth discussion see here:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/electronic_fuel_injection/index.html

Cliffs notes: TF and FC cars (and I'm sure PS and other such cars too) appropriately use N-Alpha. For most anything else it's FAR preferable to use MAF or MAS based setups. If your balls are in a vice for some reason and MAF just isn't possible or practical then you have the SD option; but it's still a big step backwards from MAF/MAS tuning.

_________________
-Will
2020 Giant Defy Adv 1
2023 Giant Revolt Adv 0
2022 Ibis Ripmo
2018 Trek Roscoe "Frankenbike"
2020 Trek Marlin 8

RIP:
Raul Ortiz - 02/29/2008
Westley Hess - 12/30/2008
Dad - 4/24/2010
Curt Brown - 5/23/2020

Well the only way i would stay with the maf. Is if i could get dsmlink. which i dont think is worth the price. i do think that going sd is worth buying a map sensor for and iat. as for the ported head. the head that was on the car had 4broken exhuast studs and leak valve seal's and the ported head was the only thing i had at the time. i would of much rather sold it but i was tired of the exhuast leak and oil burning.

DSMLink not worth the price?

SD is worth all the headaches to set it up and keep it running mediocre?

What are you going to run instead? VPC? SAFC?



You got a *LOT* to learn.... (It's seeming more and more like you have NO idea what you're talking about)

_________________
-Will
2020 Giant Defy Adv 1
2023 Giant Revolt Adv 0
2022 Ibis Ripmo
2018 Trek Roscoe "Frankenbike"
2020 Trek Marlin 8

RIP:
Raul Ortiz - 02/29/2008
Westley Hess - 12/30/2008
Dad - 4/24/2010
Curt Brown - 5/23/2020

by the time you add up wideband plus dsmlink. i dontt htink it is. but thats just me. if i do try this s-d out it turns out like crap. they oh well i have a whole 100$ in it. map sensor and ait senesor. even if i bought a wideband id still be under. and yes im going to tune it with a wideband. just not gonna have one in car.

Welcome.

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A wideband is a measuring tool, SD is a way of guessing air density. Do you have any idea at all what you're talking about? Have you even thought about what EMS you're going to use to tune the car? (Contrary to your intended plan, you can't tune a car with a wideband as its not an EMS.)

Seeing that you aren't keen on DSMLink, I have to wonder what you'll use. You haven't mentioned the VPC or SAFC as yet, but those are both "inferior" solutions costing about the same as DSMLink with less than half the functionality/tunability and a whole host more of problems anyway.

Or maybe you're gonna get an AEM? That, however appears unlikely -- if you can't justify the cost of DSMLink (let alone afford it) then you have no hope with AEM (double the buy-in cost and a *LOT* more work and additional $$$ to get the car running worth a shit). It seems pretty clear you wouldn't be tuning it yourself given that you currently intend on tuning your car with a wideband. Figure a solid $5-6k spent to get the AEM setup done right, including retunes everytime you take a dump, or change your oil and/or air filter. At that point you'd be better off shelling out the little extra cash (~$2k more) for a Motec and learning to tune yourself.

There's a lot of knowledge to be gained here if you'd only swallow some pride and ask.

Simply put: you don't need to try and impress anyone on here, and so far I think it's safe to say that if that was a requirement, you'd be failing miserably as you've made it highly self evident that you really don't know a whole heck of a lot about what you're doing. Admitting ignorance and asking for help goes far further than trying to talk talk you just don't know how to talk.

_________________
-Will
2020 Giant Defy Adv 1
2023 Giant Revolt Adv 0
2022 Ibis Ripmo
2018 Trek Roscoe "Frankenbike"
2020 Trek Marlin 8

RIP:
Raul Ortiz - 02/29/2008
Westley Hess - 12/30/2008
Dad - 4/24/2010
Curt Brown - 5/23/2020

Well, I wouldn't call it guessing...

im simply not trying to impress anyone. im gonna run speed density. why? because its differant its not as hard as it seems to tune. its free besides the parts.
It's called DS-map, a few people use and are willing to help others out. and i wouldnt buy aem. like you said i would be better off running motec. but ds-map will work fine for me right now. when my new setup goes in. maybe ill think about going dsmlink or something along those lines.
as a matter of fact im supposed to go look at a dsmlink setup for sale my buddy has. i dont think ill buy it but you never know. even if i buy it im running speed density first. and if i wanted to impress some people id say im gonna make 700 on 2g pistons with eagle rods. but there not possible right?

It IS a guess (albeit an educated one) as it is NOT a direct measurement; only an inferred one.

By measuring the pressure and temperature you're making an educated assumption about the volume of air flow; issue there is that as the VE of the motor changes it has impacts on that measurement and the accuracy thereof, ditto with humidity, etc.

MAF/MAS setups directly measure the volume of air in a flowing system so it's not nearly as impacted by changes in VE, humidity, altitude, or other factors.

So far as ease of tuning, MAF/MAS is leaps and bounds better as you (generally) don't have to be constantly retuning. The MAF/T throws a monkey wrench in that statement, but that's due to the design characteristics of the GM-MAF used with it and the fact that it wasn't really intended for super accurate [or repeatable] readings in ultra-high-airflow situations.

The DS-Map project looks interesting, but it's no where near as complete or well rounded as DSMLink. You're also going to need to spend $175 on an Ostrich, and given the greater ability to fuck stuff up (and the additional considerations like no space left in the EProm to store CEL codes) it's really not that ideal of a solution.

At least $250 for an "in-development" tuning system where you explicitly loose the ability to see fault codes etc. etc., or $550 for a fully integrated, tested into the 8's, super fault tolerant EMS which enhances existing functionality without giving up any functionality.

Pudhed is a good guy; he and I worked on the DSM-ECU project together for a while. I'm guessing DS-Map is the latest version of his bin editor from a few years a go (he and I were both writing our own DSM EProm BIN/HEX editors back in the day). I have no doubt that his product works, but I can also promise you that there are far better "bang for the buck" options out there [like dsmlink].

All that aside, given the financial situation for most DSMers, it is absolutely in your best interest to go straight for DSMLink and skip the fussing around with experimental stuff. I promise you in the end it will cost you FAR more than you could ever have expected to go the cheaper route.

Pretty much every single member of this group has learned that lesson the hard way. Luckily for our newer members (such as yourself) you need not make the same expensive mistakes the rest of us did; you can simply inquire and benefit from our experiences.

_________________
-Will
2020 Giant Defy Adv 1
2023 Giant Revolt Adv 0
2022 Ibis Ripmo
2018 Trek Roscoe "Frankenbike"
2020 Trek Marlin 8

RIP:
Raul Ortiz - 02/29/2008
Westley Hess - 12/30/2008
Dad - 4/24/2010
Curt Brown - 5/23/2020

I still wouldn't call it a guess, even an "educated" guess... more like an extrapolated measurement, as are the readings from a hot-wire MAF: an extrapolated air flow measurement based on the temperature of two wires, which is further extrapolated from the electrical current running through one of them. MAF sensor readings aren't impenetrable either: minute amounts of contamination can throw off their readings considerably.

A properly configured SD system should not have to be constantly re-tuned. Sure, if you change a major component you'll have to tweak your fuel maps, but it won't need attention on a daily basis. Many of those running Megasquirt use BAP/MAP setups to provide real-time barometric correction factors to the ECU: but that's really irrelevant in Florida.

Irrelevant in FL? Dude, the DA here can swing a few thousand feet (i've calculated ~4,000' swings day to day) in 24 hours.

As far as "changing a major component": air filter, intake piping, manifold, head, cams, etc. etc. all would require at least basic retunes. Not sure where the "major component" borderline is though. IMO, pistons, rods, valves, etc. would be "major components" -- mainly because they require the most work to change.

_________________
-Will
2020 Giant Defy Adv 1
2023 Giant Revolt Adv 0
2022 Ibis Ripmo
2018 Trek Roscoe "Frankenbike"
2020 Trek Marlin 8

RIP:
Raul Ortiz - 02/29/2008
Westley Hess - 12/30/2008
Dad - 4/24/2010
Curt Brown - 5/23/2020

Um... okay? I have a habit of using measurements that apply to surface dwellers rather than pilots and astronauts re-entering the atmosphere: like barometer readings in millibars, which rarely deviate more than 10 mbar/day unless there's a hurricane.

MAP sensors only read in absolute pressure after all. I wouldn't know without looking at the source code, but I'm fairly certain most engine management units don't calculate DA either.

Oh, and I'd say a change a turbocharger or fuel injectors is fairly major.

either way. guess or no guess. im gonna run SD. why? well closed loop looks very interesting to me. im not worried about making X amount of horse power as much as im worried about gas. it keeps going up. i drive my car alot. average atleast 300miles a week. the car runs amazing never 1 single problem with it. except the gas mileage. and even still i cant use closed loop untill i buy my wideband. which might be this week or next month dont know. but i still would like to try something else before going dsmlink.

*question*
im looking at a dsmlink package. the whole thing with a maf-t setup but he also said he would include the 5bar map sensor. from what i understand you woulnt need one for dsmlink right? or is it a add on? either way id like to know if it would be a good deal for 500$. its a buddy of mine's friend up north. and the car could have gone 9's im pretty sure about that.

A DSMLink package is the chip(A LEGITIMATE CHIP) and cable.
Of course you need an EPROM ECU as well, with a socket job.

Everything else is an add-on.

Simplest way I can answer that question.

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Being a "Patriot" does not mean prioritizing service to government above all else.
-Edward Snowden

$500 for DSMLink (if it comes with the ECU) is an absolute steal.

Paul, DA applies to surface dwellers just as much as pilots or runners or anyone else who needs X amount of oxygen molecules per N volume of air.

Ever notice that numbers at Moroso will oftentimes seem more like numbers from elevation than from sea level? DA is why.

Remember: high volumes of water in the atmosphere lower the density of oxygen in a given volume of air -- and that's exactly what DA is a measure of -- the density of a volume of air (and, thus, the density of oxygen molecules there-in).

Also, as for SD tuning: remember that the VE of your engine is going to change based on air temperature, and as VE changes your SD/MAP tune will have to change as well (at least, if you wish to maintain a consistant level of performance).

_________________
-Will
2020 Giant Defy Adv 1
2023 Giant Revolt Adv 0
2022 Ibis Ripmo
2018 Trek Roscoe "Frankenbike"
2020 Trek Marlin 8

RIP:
Raul Ortiz - 02/29/2008
Westley Hess - 12/30/2008
Dad - 4/24/2010
Curt Brown - 5/23/2020

I understand what DA attempts to measure, but it's an elastic representation of local barometric pressure and temperature, multiplied by an absolutely huge factor: thus even a small change in pressure or temperature manifests itself as a large change in DA. My point was that the changes in barometric pressure and temperature are nowhere near as drastic as DA makes them seem.

And, I can't believe you said an SD setup will need to be re-tuned if air temperature changes: that's what an IAT sensor is for... Air temperature is a main factor in the equation any SD-based EMS uses to calculate fuel. Like I said before, a properly configured SD system should rarely need to be re-tuned: only in the event of major component replacement.

I understand your points about MAF/MAS systems, but I think calling them superior over SD setups is a little unfounded. There are definite advantages to each: I just don't think you're seeing the advantages of SD.

500 is without the ecu. i have a one with a socket. dsmlink is the same for 90-94 correct? i have a lovely 1990=)

Either which way he wants to set his car up its his choice

he is either not going to like the set up he is going with or he will


either way i hope you the best in your adventure.

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Drive it like you Stole it

1G DSMLink or 2g DSMLink, that's it.

www.dsmlink.com
for more info and here ...

_________________
Being a "Patriot" does not mean prioritizing service to government above all else.
-Edward Snowden

Dan, I don't want to muck up the "turbo" thread you started in Tech.

So I figured here would be better, just do me a favor and use the "shift key"
once in while.

Spelling is ok, your punctuation and grammar are so-so.
But I'm not grading you and I've seen ALOT worse. Thanks man...

_________________
Being a "Patriot" does not mean prioritizing service to government above all else.
-Edward Snowden

Yup, and we're here to offer the benefit of our experience that doing things in certain ways is less than ideal and ends up being a waste of money. I wish people had given me that sort of information before I started down the path of building my car as it would have saved me THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars.

_________________
-Will
2020 Giant Defy Adv 1
2023 Giant Revolt Adv 0
2022 Ibis Ripmo
2018 Trek Roscoe "Frankenbike"
2020 Trek Marlin 8

RIP:
Raul Ortiz - 02/29/2008
Westley Hess - 12/30/2008
Dad - 4/24/2010
Curt Brown - 5/23/2020