Well don't I feel like an idiot (okay, not really)... sorry, I didn't remember any Avengers, my bad. "my how time flies" Although it's not been long, thinking back, I can't believe it's been as long as it has... been a couple months that is.

Nothing against you or your car, but an Avenger is definitely not a DSM in any way, shape, or form.

Nothing against you or your car, but an Avenger is definitely not a DSM in any way, shape, or form.

Saying an Avenger isn't a dsm is like saying a 420a isn't a dsm.

So because it uses some similar parts, that makes it a DSM?

Wrong. Try Again.

420a isn't a DSM... 420a is a motor.

And I have never said that non-turbo Eclipses/Talons/Lasers aren't DSMs. They most certainly are.

But an Avenger is most certainly not.

Yes I said it, so we can start calling Neons dsms too.

Eh.... don't get carried away there buddy lol.

To add to the debate, i've had 2 avengers. My first, a 95, had a DSM sticker on the passenger side of the firewall. This one was a V6 that I swapped a 3.0 from a 3g eclipse.

AJ, waiting on your rebuttal here. But seriously, there's quite a few guys on tuners with 4g63's in their Avengers so this is not something new.

And according to you... Yeah, I guess Neons are DSMs too because they use the Chrysler 420A.

This topic have been beaten to death so much that it's not even funny. I can't tell how many times this argument has been brought up and laid to rest.

AJ, if YOU want me to get technical then I'll do the same but more in depth. There's nothing that can't be found on Wikipedia nowadays which is probably where you got your info so I'll just post the entire thing. So here we go...

The first generation Dodge Avenger was a 2-door coupe produced from 1995 to 2000, replacing the Dodge Daytona and the Mitsubishi-based Dodge Stealth (which was discontinued in 1996). The Avenger, along with the similar Chrysler Sebring coupe, were built by Diamond Star Motors (DSM), a joint venture between Chrysler Corporation and Mitsubishi Motors, on a stretched version of the Mitsubishi Eclipse platform. This joint venture between the two ended in 1995. Avengers and Sebring coupes built from 1995 to 1996 both have DSM markings in their engine compartments. The Avenger had a 103 in (2.62 m) wheelbase and used either a 2.0 L I4 (the Chrysler 420A) or a Mitsubishi-designed 2.5 L V6. The 4-cylinder was coupled to either a five-speed manual transmission, shared with the Mitsubishi Eclipse and Eagle Talon, or a 4-speed automatic. The V6 was only available with the A604 transmission.

Initially, three models were produced at this facility. The Mitsubishi Eclipse, Plymouth Laser and Eagle Talon were smaller 2+2 sports cars on a new co-designed platform. Models subsequently produced during the next decade included the Mitsubishi Mirage/Eagle Summit, the Mitsubishi Galant, the Dodge Avenger/Chrysler Sebring, and the Dodge Stratus.

I've never heard of anyone calling an Evo a DSM so that statement coming out of left field is a surprise to me. Those cars were never made here so it has nothing to do with the history of DSMs.

What exactly is a DSM?

Technically, a DSM is a car built by Diamond Star Motors, a joint venture between Mitsubishi and Chrysler. More details about DSM are here.

For the purposes of the Talon Digest, the definition of a DSM has been extended somewhat; see below for details.

[Note: From time to time, debates on the definition of a 'DSM' emerge on the Digest. These debates usually center around a record-breaking car which, because it does or does not have a certain component or feature, 'should' or 'should not' be considered a 'DSM' in the 'true' sense of the word.

Such judgements are entirely subjective and cannot be resolved, except by arbitrary rules; resist the temptation to reopen any such debate on the Talon Digest, as the moderator (and membership) are tired of hearing about it. All race results that can reasonably be deemed related to DSMs are reported - whoever is king in your own mind is best kept to yourself.]

In further news, the now-merged DaimlerChrysler corporation purchased a 34% stake in the now-ailing Mitsubishi Motors corporation in April, 2000. This is not to be taken as a re-emergence of DSM, however - the DSM marque is now consigned to the pages of history.

What happened to DSM?
What happened to Eagle?

Diamond-Star Motors was officially dissolved in 1993 after the design and production tooling for the 1994 and 1995 cars was complete. Mitsubishi Motors continues to operate the plant formerly responsible for DSM cars under sole ownership.

The "Eagle" brand name was originally created as a method of integrating AMC dealerships and products into Chrysler. It continued for some time as a marque, much as General Motors now continues to market under several brand names. It was eventually discontinued as Chrysler sought to improve their business operations. For more information, go to Eaglecars.com.

Are 2Gs (second generation, 1995+ cars) really DSMs?

[Note: this information applies only to the definition of a 'DSM' as used for the purposes of the Talon Digest, and does not reflect the personal opinion of any individual.]

2G cars are considered DSMs because they are direct descendants of the original DSM cars. Although they were technically not built by Diamond Star Motors, their connection to the original line is unmistakable, as they share the name, trim levels and original intention of the 1G cars.

Also, some early 95 cars have DSM labeling on them, leading many to believe that all 2Gs were built by Diamond Star Motors. This is not the case, as Diamond Star Motors officially ceased to exist in mid-1993, when Chrysler sold off all of its Mitsubishi holdings, technically making the 1994 cars the last of the DSMs. This type of hair-splitting is not important for Club purposes, however, and the Club has decided that 2Gers have as much right to be included as earlier owners.

The Galant VR-4 is something of an oddity in the club, but the VR-4 shares many important components with the 1G cars, including the unusual AWD drivetrain. It can be argued that the Galant VR-4 is the "parent" of all DSMs: the original concept for the DSM in North America was a four-door. Also the VR-4 platform was originally concieved to be Mitsubishi's entry into the rally racing circuit before DSM existed.

A similar situation exists with the 2G Spyder convertible, but it's connection with the other 2G cars is unmistakable. Thus the Spyder and VR4 are included in the scope of the Talon Digest.

Other pseudo-related cars, such as the non-USA Lancer and Mirage, are not included in the Digest.

The Last Word: C'mon guys, we're all brothers by now.

Are Sebrings and Avengers DSMs?

Aside from the fact that Sebring and Avenger cars are built in the same MMMA plant as the 2G cars, there is nothing to connect them to the DSM name. They do not share heritage, appearance, upgrade paths or many parts with DSMs. For this reason, these two models are not considered DSMs, and discussion regarding these cars is not part of the Talon Digest or most UBB systems concentrating on DSMs.

Having said that, the Avenger enthusiasts are quick to point out that the Avenger/Sebring platform and the second-generation non-turbo DSM platform do share some similarities. They have similar interiors, bodies, and suspension, and several of the non-turbo upgrades for the NT DSMs work on the A/S cars, since some A/S cars have the same 420A Chrysler motor. Also, some A/S cars have a 2.5L NT similar to the 3.0L NT found in third-generation Eclipses. (Information provided by Tomas Ely.) It could be argued that the A/S cars are cousins to the DSMs - not the same, but similar.

Those looking for more information on the Avenger and Sebring would do well to visit the A/S Owner's Group (ASOG).

Even though your statement is true that they have no history with DSMs, the Evo 1-3 did share basically the same motor/configuration as a DSM. The EVO 3 16g is a very common upgrade to DSMs.

..

Dude, I've read those links a thousand times. I don't need you to post them up as if they are hidden somewhere and can't be found. Who gives a fuck about the Talon Digest? I sure don't. I appreciated what Todd did back in the day and the hundreds of useful links but that's his personal opinion. Did you notice this statement in your linked post?

[Note: this information applies only to the definition of a 'DSM' as used for the purposes of the Talon Digest, and does not reflect the personal opinion of any individual.]

Exactly, that's what they feel and how they look at it. I'm not them.

Like I said before, Avengers are considered DSMs in MY BOOK. It doesn't matter what you've read from 1000 FAQ and you can post a 1000 more links if you want to.

Do you consider 420A's DSMs? Hmm...Let me rephrase that since I have that it's an engine code.

Do you consider Mitsubishi Eclipses from 95-99 and Eagle Talons from 95-98 with the Non-Turbo 420a Chrysler motors DSMs? I'm curious as to what your response will be.

So because it uses some similar parts, that makes it a DSM?

Wrong. Try Again.

420a isn't a DSM... 420a is a motor.

And I have never said that non-turbo Eclipses/Talons/Lasers aren't DSMs. They most certainly are.

But an Avenger is most certainly not.